Converting from flat rate Toronto Hydro water heaters????

[Michael Cayley]

A while back we received a brochure from Toronto Hydro done up by a slick marketing company (probably one near and dear to my heart :) telling me about my great opportunity to conserve energy and save money by getting rid of the two 175L water heaters that I have on flat rate that came along with my house when I bought it.

In short, they are kicking me off their current service at my expense.

It is probably a good thing ... I am interested in saving money and energy and the broader environmental implications ... but researching the alternatives and trying to get the best deal is something that I have run out of time on.

Apparently I run the risk of Toronto Hydro turning off my hot water in September???

I have tried to convince my wife that we can stay warm by showering together but that is not going to work for the tenant that we have in our basement apartment.

So ... has anyone you know been proactive on this ... read all the options, weighed all the alternatives, priced the various choices, obtained three quotes from trusted contractors and been happy with their decision?

Yes ... I was the guy who missed all of the 8:30 am classes and borrowed your notes the night before the exam.

Here are a few of the links that I have been wading through ...

http://www.torontohydro.com/electricsystem/business/flat_rate_water...

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=767885

http://downtownwest.ourpower.ca/Portal.aspx?portalid=16

And OMG! a nine part series by a guy who clearly cares and thinks a lot more about this. Good lord! He is an accountant who has oooooddles more expertise in home reno and weighing the financial trade offs and has not been able to make a decision during months of consideration! ...

http://dailyhomerenotips.com/2008/07/31/tankless-water-heater-part-...

So I say, let's just vote and someone send me a phone number so that I can pull the trigger and not worry about how dumb or irresponsible I am going to be with whatever decision that I come up with ....

Where the hell is Goldhawk when you need him??

[Sean Cosgrove]

Update - Solar Neighbourhoods expands :Mike- You can know get the extra $1,000 city rebate (or choose the $500 rebatewith 10 year no interest loan option) In all 4 east -end wards. The Solar Neighbourhoods program is expanding its coverage area to include Wards 29, 31 and 32 together with Ward 30, effective Sept. 1, 2009. This expansion is in response to the high level of interest that has been expressed in these neighbouring wards. As a pilot program, we are also looking to learn from a wider array of installation types and installations. So if you are a resident in any of these four wards, you are now eligible for the special Solar Neighbourhoods incentive, no cost financing and, of course, support from our friendly staff throughout the installation process. However, while the program coverage area has expanded, the total number of systems for which incentives will be available has not, so request an info kit today as our first step to taking advantage of these first come, first served benefits! Program ends soon.

[Sean Cosgrove]

Well go to www.solarneighbourhoods.ca and tune into the sun which can pay 50% of your hot water heating fuel bills for the next 25 years. Otherwise you just pay fuel forever and no ROI. You are just north of Ward 30 so you only can get the $2,500 federal and provincial rebates and the federal tax credit, say $900 on a $7,000 two panel flat plate system. You miss the $1,000 extra in the City solar pilot program. I can tell you that I back up my solar hot water system with a whole house tankless boiler but you can get a domestic hot water only sized tankless boiler back up, very small and easy to vent outside. I would not rent Ontario is only place in world that does and you pay 3x over. Of course you need 5 hours of steady sun say 10-am to 3 pm to heat up your tank. Only a little shading by trees is tolerable. You can go 5m over the roof line to grab the sun, but let the contractors in Solar Neighbourhoods do solar site assessment for you. This solar thermal heating has been popular for 100 years and it is the panels you see in Europe, Japan, the Levant etc. Oh by the way we have the solar resource, Toronto is south of France, aligns with Milan's latittude. Best to you and call me direct to discuss. 416-392-1454

[Amelia H]

Our situation is almost identical to Sue Ann's. When we first moved to our house, our flat rate bill was around $350. It went up at least 10% a year. Last year, we decided to get a water meter. We paid around $70 for the plumber to come install the water meter and since then, our bill has been around $70. We also received a huge credit after we switched to the meter. We are family of three (with an infant), and we do moderate garden watering, use a dishwasher about once a week, and about 2 loads of laundry per week. Going to metered water was definitely the right choice for us. Good luck!

[Michael Cayley]

What about "do nothing" as an option? Would they really shut off my hot water?

[jennifer arnold]

If you're considering changing your water heating, there's a City incentive program this year specifically for Riverdale that provides homeowners with extra incentives ($1,000 rebate, or $500 rebate plus zero-interest financing) to install solar water heating. It works with gas or electric conventional systems, tank or tankless, and rental or owned. There's more info at www.solarneighbourhoods.ca. If you combine water saving measures with the solar water heating system, you can bring your water heating bill down over 50% over the course of the year.

[Andy Strote]

Michael, nah, we had nothing to do with it. This is old stuff, been going on forever. I would suggest you look into the costs of converting to gas hot water. Your electricity rates are only going one way..... gas, who knows? Depends if you believe Jeff Rubin. As to Sue with the flat rate water, I'm surprised they let you keep it this long. There's been a rolling campaign to get most people off flat rates because in general they had been paying too little. Obviously you were the exception. Nice that they gave you the credit.

[Sue Ann Elite]

I have been in my house for 18 years and last year, in a conversation with one of my neighbours, I commented that the property tax had gone up. When she answered that she had not received a new bill, I said that mine had gone up to over $400! She said the only bill she had received was the water bill and suggested that I check again. I did and it WAS the water bill -- she asked me why my bill was so high. We are only 2 people who are "into" water conservation so I began wondering. I called Toronto Water and spoke with someone who told me I was on a "flat rate" and explained what that really meant and that it is based on how many sinks, toilets, etc. you have, not on how much you use. Well, I have a bathroom on each floor of my house (3), only 1 of which is used more than once a day and I have 2 sinks because my son lived here while he was in universit and I put a small kitchen in his "pad". This is not an apartment and we don't rent it out either. That was why my bill was so high. I immediately asked them to put me on a meter and they sent someone who did the conversion (a wire connection from my inside meter to outside) and that was it! What's more, they credited me the money I had overspent last year by being on a flat rate. My water bill now is about $60.00.
Check into this aspect and if it applies to you, pay whatever to get on the new system. One of the reasons they are doing this is to make people conscious of how much water they use/waste. The more we can save the amount of water we use, the better it will be for the environment.
Sue Ann

[Boris Stefanovic]

My only advice is that you don't buy a water heater, rent it. If you have any problem with it you can call them and they'll replace it. Cost purchasing is about the same as ten years of rental (more if buy on credit and pay interest) and you should replace it about every 10 years anyway.

I was researching tankless at one time but couldn't find enough benefits to justify the added expense: modern water heaters are well insulated and your heat loss is primarily in the hot water standing in the pipes.

We ended up with a high-efficiency gas heater and only paid a small premium for the power venting installation needed to vent the gas emissions. If your chimney is stainless steel lined then you might even be able to avoid this cost and not use power-venting.

Good luck!
B